karathracelives | Semper Frakking Fi

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I love when Kara gets to deliver some home truths to people who need a schooling. And it was especially gratifying that she got to do it to Adama here, who'd been, for me, pretty insufferable for a very long while. But it's interesting that Kara and Bill are both generally considered to be people who make decisions based on their heart and not their heads so much, and yet they widely differ here (and in other points in canon too). Is it that Bill manages to remain some sort of naivete about the people he commands? Does he think that they're all good people at heart or is it an ego thing that he can't imagine they would betray him personally? Kara, on the other hand....well if you're not with our girl, you are definitely against her. Or at least she sees it that way. Of the many adjectives you could choose to describe Kara, naive is really not one of them. I think she's sort of the flipside of Bill here, where, even though I don't believe she's a cynic or a pessimist, she definitely is never surprised by seeing the worst of people, thanks to her past. How do you think Kara and Bill are similar or different in this regard?

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From:

reginaspina.livejournal.com

Is it that Bill manages to remain some sort of naivete about the people he commands? Does he think that they're all good people at heart or is it an ego thing that he can't imagine they would betray him personally?

I think he just feels that the way he views the world is the One Right Way. And we get a stellar example of this with Saul Tigh - even before anyone knew Saul Tigh was a Cylon, it was clear that he was not the person who should be in command in the event that anything happened to Bill, but Bill sort of glosses over all that happened (like, declaring martial law?) and keeps Tigh on as his XO. Sometimes this can be a plus, because it means that if Bill Adama thinks you're OK, then you are OK. On the other hand, I think he has no idea that anyone might feel differently about things than he does, so in the mutiny in particular his blind spots became glaringly obvious - he didn't understand that while he had accepted the Cylons as comrades (and even in Saul's case, as a friend), a lot of other people disagreed with him. He never tried to win over anyone to his POV, he just issued his orders and assumed they'd be obeyed, without realizing just how frayed the trust everyone had in him had become. In his mind, they're a family (though you'd think given his own family experiences, he might be a bit more aware of the fissures that exist even within a family, right?) and so he's always surprised by betrayal.

she definitely is never surprised by seeing the worst of people, thanks to her past. How do you think Kara and Bill are similar or different in this regard?

I think Kara is not as blindly confident as Bill that her world-view is the right one. When she truly believes in a cause, she'll hold on like a pit-bull, but she's open to changing her mind. (Now the way in which they are similar is that her personal loyalty, once given, is never revoked unless she feels that you've betrayed her - hence her trip to Caprica for the Arrow, I think.) But her friendship and loyalty (like Bill's), though not given lightly, is rock solid - she doesn't turn on Helo after the Sharon thing; she doesn't put a bullet in Sam's head when she finds out he's a Cylon - as she threatened - though ironically and tragically that happened anyway.

I think fundamentally, maybe Kara, though not at heart a pessimist, has seen more of the awfulness of the world because she is WILLING to see more. Adama is really good at blocking out whatever doesn't fit into his picture of things (such as his ex-wife's relationship with their sons or Zak's actual abilities as a pilot or Lee's passionate love for Kara or .... the list goes on :P)

From:

somewhereapart.livejournal.com

I think the fact that Adama wasn't on New Caprica has something to do with this here. While Kara wasn't out with the rest of the population during the occupation, she certainly wasn't completely unaware of what was going on, and I think knowing that this society had already fractured once over the Cylons, knowing how strong the emotions run there and having seen firsthand the inability for some people to re-integrate and the desire for vengeance... She knows that some people just will NEVER be okay with the Cylons, in a way that I think Adama doesn't, because he wasn't there. This isn't about the Cylon holocaust anymore at this point, this is personal for a lot of survivors. And Adama just isn't one of those survivors. He wasn't there, he doesn't understand, which probably makes the assumption that everyone will just fall in line over the Cylon truce an even harder pill to swallow for people.

Kara gets that to a much greater extent than he does, and Kara has been out in the thick of things, watching the rumblings of this build in a way that Bill hasn't. And I think at this point in the episode, she's also seen more of the actual mutiny going down than Bill has. She's seen how many people are involved to a greater extent, and she gets that this is not just a few unhappy people. This is a big frakking problem, and they don't have time to hem and haw and play nice with people just because they have past experience with them. People have chosen sides, and that's the game now. If you ignore that, you lose. And in this case, losing pretty much means dying.

From:

reginaspina.livejournal.com

Heh! Of course you have a much more sane and rational explanation, whereas I just let my Bill Adama issues explode all over the place.

I agree that the experience of New Caprica (and probably of the Demetrius too) have prepared Kara for humans turning on each other in a much more concrete way than Bill has yet experienced. (Maybe even the fact that Bill saw fit to throttle her a couple of times helped her see clearly ... :P Ooops, Bill issues AGAIN!)

From:

scifishipper.livejournal.com

I've always seen Bill as just being tired in this scene. He's outraged, of course, but I think he sees why people are so conflicted - he himself was very conflicted about an alliance with the cylons. Kara, however, is not encumbered by those doubts. She does what she's supposed to do (and what she does best) she defends those she loves - Adama, Lee, the service, the fleet. She knows right from wrong and she'd just been part of a mutiny herself. She is very clearheaded here. "Feelin' alive for the first time in weeks..." It's a great scene.

From:

reginaspina.livejournal.com

He's outraged, of course, but I think he sees why people are so conflicted - he himself was very conflicted about an alliance with the cylons.

But he does have this idea that once he's accepted/commanded something then that's it - and on the one hand, yes, he's a military commander and that's how things work in the military, but on the other hand, i really fault Laura AND Bill for not even TRYING to talk to people after the revelations of dead earth. Lee urged both of them to communicate with the Fleet at large, and they ignored him, and then they paid this terrible price.

(In the end, he's quite merciful, though, because it seems like only Gaeta and Zarek are actually executed.)

From:

rachelindeed.livejournal.com

Hhmm. Very interesting discussion. Rather than focusing on the larger themes, can I ask a more specific question about this particular scene? Does everyone agree that Kara was right in trying to shoot Bill's prisoner? It seems to me that Bill has not had a problem killing his own men when he has to -- he shot the other guy who was guarding him and Saul before, and is using this guy for information. He seems to sense -- accurately -- that this guy is more conflicted over the mutiny and has had his spirit broken by their resistance. While Kara is right that they don't have time to drag around a load of prisoners, I think Bill is right that this guy is not actually much of a threat anymore. I'm kind of glad he scampers off.

I don't know -- I like those little moments of mercy even amidst the carnage -- I like the moment where Kelly and the Chief reconnect with each other, and the moment where Kelly changes sides and runs after Lee to help save Bill. I don't know; it's not just kill or be killed, even in something as ugly as this. Lots of people on both sides are conflicted. Even Kara doesn't always shoot to kill -- she could easily have shot Skulls in the head rather than the shoulder on the hangar deck, but she didn't because she didn't have to.

I think it's clear that all of them kill when necessary. But was it necessary here?

From:

zenzero42.livejournal.com

This scene seems quite strange at a first look considering that usually Adama doesn't take very well personal betrayals. This is something in which Kara and Bill are quite different, Kara doesn't hold grudge while Adama can keep his resentment for a very long time. but I guess that in that moment Adama is still in denial about the mutiny, while Kara is very realistic about the dangers and the implications of the situation.

Adama doesn't want to believe that his men and women are turning against him, Kara instead is in soldier-mode ready to do whatever it takes to defend her commanding officer and to take the control of the ship back.

I think Adama doesn't want to face the truth because it hurts to much. I think the huge difference here between Kara and Bill is that Adama should first of all, in order to face the mutiny with a clear mind, recognize his responsibilities. While Kara doesn't have to face demos or guilt (for once), she just has to defend her people, and this is something she is really good at it.

I also remember that RDM said that at the end of the episode, when Adama is taking back the CIC, there was a deleted scene in which Adama shot to a random mutineer. RDM regretted not to have put that scene because it showed that Adama understood Kara's words.

btw I love Kara in the Lorence of Arabia mode "take no prisoners!"

From:

samstareagle.livejournal.com

I'm going to throw out my wet blanket, so anybody that finds this annoying, just ignore me and PLEASE don't think I'm trying to put down anybody's enjoyment of the show cause this is just ME. ;)

ANYWAY...

For the rest of the show, meaning everything up to FakeEarth (when it was still somewhat redeemable), this is a neat discussion for me...AFTER THAT, in S4.5, for me, it just comes across waaay to strong as Ron and the writers practically having a drunken, spitting-in-your-ear-while-talking-to-you dreary monologue out about possibly losing and then truly having to leave behind the thing they'd wrapped up all their insecurities and delusions of grandeur in. Think about it, 4.5 from Adama's storyline is "All you backstabbing traitors are supposed to let me have everything my way and you're trying to take my ship away, frak all of you!!!" (Mutiny Arc/The Strike), and then it slowly drags into the "I'm losing my ship!!! WAAAH!!!" phase (Galactica's decay/The show's necessary final conclusion). Substitute the word *ship* for *show*, and it comes off as EXACTLY what was going on when they wrote it in RL, which just irritates me beyond end.

I don't like it when a writer's insecurities are blared at me on screen with the attitude that I have to accept their take on things and vilify the rest of world for them, and this was definitely when it turned into that for me. SOOO wish it hadn't been that, and that it actually was a good story, but I just find Moore and the other writers so utterly insecure as Human beings now, for me, it's just them putting their words into the characters' mouths for me now. And NOBODY that refuses to pronounce Kara's name right get's to do that in my book. :P