Date: 2010-11-20 06:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greycoupon.livejournal.com
Ah yes, the scene that made me damn Adama to hell.

Kara was PTSDing like mad. So was Tigh. But he gets forgiven and Kara gets kicked out of her chair and called a cancer. With NO follow up. Was Maelstrom really the next personal interaction they had?

The "insurrection" or whatever it was didn't really make sense or work. At least Ron admitted that. What was the point? They were traumatized by New Caprica and would...get other pilots to be upset over past events? That's not a rebellion.

Date: 2010-11-20 08:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mserrada.livejournal.com
Yeah, dealing with my feelings about this scene and the lack of followup inspired the fic I recently posted.

AND, to set the record straight, he SHOVED her out of the chair. Go back and carefully watch it again. Most people think he kicked her from the chair--and then Tigh does ask if Adama is going to kick him out of his chair, too. But, I believe the main reason people remember it this way is because it SEEMS like Adama was really verbally and metaphorically kicking Kara when she was already down.

It hurt so seeing their relationship at this point with no attempt made by the Admiral to understand what Kara was going through.

Date: 2010-11-20 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thegreenkitty.livejournal.com
I realize I'm going to be in the minority here but I think maybe Kara needed this scene. She was stuck in a cycle of PTSD/depression and self-destructive behavior.

Yes, she had every reason and every right to be in that emotional state, but maybe tough love was the only thing that would get through to her at that point. Helo and Sam had tried being understanding. Lee had tried the threat of tough love with his airlock comment. Maybe she needed to get shoved out of her chair.

I don't know...but I say the above as someone who's been in a PTSD/depressed state and benefitted more from tough love than the caring/supportive crap...I think because it incorporates the anger that's already there but turns it a bit into a "frak you then, I'll prove you wrong" rather than allowing the anger to fester. It's easier to blow off a concerned friend than it is to ignore someone that gets in your face.

I'm also not advocating for Adama as a whole. The "daughter no more" comments and the lack of support/follow-up after the chair scene was horrible and possibly unforgiveable. I just don't think THIS scene was the problem. I tend to feel that his lack of personal interaction with Kara *after* this scene...after she motivated herself to chop off her hair and go to the next pilots' briefing...was where he completely failed.

Also, I think Adama realized that Kara and Tigh would each require a different approach b/c his relationship was different with each. You wouldn't confront your daughter and your bff in the same way. You'd have to maintain the unique dynamic of each relationship.

FWIW, I realize I'm all frakked up, but I actually like the Kara scenes in Torn.

Date: 2010-11-21 10:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zenzero42.livejournal.com
I'm also not advocating for Adama as a whole. The "daughter no more" comments and the lack of support/follow-up after the chair scene was horrible and possibly unforgiveable. I just don't think THIS scene was the problem. I tend to feel that his lack of personal interaction with Kara *after* this scene...after she motivated herself to chop off her hair and go to the next pilots' briefing...was where he completely failed.

I like (want) to think that there was a moment between those two (in my mind is after "Hero") in which they restored their relationship. Something with few words, as their style, but with deep understanding and a papadama hug.
just it wasn't shown on screen!!!
the way Adama looks at Kara in UB when she is on the ring with Hot Dog to me it's the prove that he still was and felt as the proud father.


FWIW, I realize I'm all frakked up, but I actually like the Kara scenes in Torn.
same here :)

Date: 2010-11-21 08:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scifishipper.livejournal.com
I'm with you, bb. It's a difficult scene to watch and I do think Bill could have done without the more hurtful comments, but I didn't have a problem with the chair tossing or his attitude in general. She was stuck and drowning and I think it worked overall, although I am NOT a fan of of it needing to happen.

That said, I would have also preferred for the show to have dealt with Kara's trauma reaction in some other way than "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." But that is for a whole other discussion.

I also understand and appreciate the Torn scene. Don't like that it happened, but I get it and it makes sense to me.

Date: 2010-11-21 03:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kitsal.livejournal.com
This scene was so painful to watch. Yeah, I understand the tough love thing, especially with Starbuck's personality. But I think that the "daughter no more" was completely unacceptable and cruel. That must have hurt Kara so bad.

Date: 2010-11-21 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rachelindeed.livejournal.com
I would add my vote to those who don't think this scene works very well. The episode didn't do anything to convince me that Kara and Tigh's trash-talking was having such serious consequences that they were metaphorically killing their Admiral, or whatever it was Bill was trying to say with his "shoot me" speech. As the episode plays, I get the impression that they are spending their off-duty time pissing off the active pilots by talking about how much worse they had it on New Caprica, which, okay, is unprofessional, but does not rate the "you are a cancer and I disown you" reaction on Bill's part, it just seems wildly over-reactive to me.

Kara's behavior earlier in the episode was far more disturbing -- she knowingly caused an accident which disabled her plane and could have resulted in serious injury to herself and the other pilot (I say she knowingly caused the accident because her calm, ironic announcement, "Incoming," made it clear that she saw the collision coming and deliberately followed Lee's order to "stay in formation" rather than moving aside and preventing the accident. I see this as a burst of passive aggression. I don't think she was trying to kill herself -- I don't think Kara would risk taking out another pilot with her in a collision like that if she thought the ships would hit hard enough to actually explode. I think it was an unhealthy but not suicidal impulse, and also a sticking-it-to-Lee moment, possibly even a tacit cry for his help/attention).

I wish they had let Bill react to *that* incident by reading her the riot act about not frakking around with her life or anyone else's. But we see none of his reaction to that, and his confrontation seems to be based instead on Helo's vague comment that she and Tigh are lowering morale. I don't see the same concern for her welfare in his approach to her as in his approach to Tigh, and I don't think it's so much because he accurately reads their different personalities as because he knows that Tigh lost Ellen and as far as he can see Kara hasn't lost anyone. He doesn't understand her trauma, and he doesn't try to.

I don't like how physical he is with Kara in this scene, or in his later Season Four scene where he throws her to the ground and throttles her in the brig. I think he crosses lines with Kara that should not be crossed; lines that he doesn't cross with Lee, for example. I think she does respond to it by "shaping up," and while I'm glad she took his negative behavior and used it for the good, I think it was still negative behavior and that if she needed "tough love" Adama should have found a way to administer it that was less abusive. I think Lee's approach was more appropriate -- he grounded her. Adama could have put her in the brig, he could have mandated she see a psychiatrist, he could have thrown down a verbal gauntlet about how she was taking the coward's way out by making herself unfit for duty, but he should have done all that without the personal nastiness of this scene, IMO.

Date: 2010-11-21 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mserrada.livejournal.com
Hmmm. Interesting take on the Viper accident. I've always seen it as Starbuck going after Kat against orders and, possibly due to her being out of the cockpit for over a year, actually not being on top of her flying game and misjudging things.

I understand the tough love approach, and for Kara (who doesn't do subtle) I think it was partially the way to go. But Adama's actual execution of it was awful and an over-reaction to the circumstances like you said. He should have confronted her in private, demanded she frakking explain herself or else. Force her to talk and wave the stick as incentive.

And his physical 'abuse'... I'm 'torn' ;^) Kara is a very physical person. It's how she knows to deal with things. The fact that Adama reacts physically to her is HIGHLY inappropriate, but also shows how emotionally involved he is with her. We know Kara's childhood abuse issues and it gives us a perspective that I don't think Adama's character has.

Then there is Maelstrom. Whether the writers meant it or not, I blame a lot of Kara's issues/actions/reactions in that episode on unresolved PTSD and family/'daddy' issues. The only meaningful interaction prior to Maelstrom that I can remember between Adama and Kara was at Kat's bedside when he puts his hand on Kara's shoulder to comfort her. He doesn't even try to have a private talk with her after Lee's revelations in Maelstrom, just the public little interchange between them (made of WIN, for sure, but too brief & again-public)

Gee, think I've given this any thought?! :)

Date: 2010-11-21 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zenzero42.livejournal.com
And his physical 'abuse'... I'm 'torn' ;^) Kara is a very physical person. It's how she knows to deal with things. The fact that Adama reacts physically to her is HIGHLY inappropriate, but also shows how emotionally involved he is with her.

yes. this.

Date: 2010-11-21 10:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zenzero42.livejournal.com
I have to confess that I adore this scene.
It's hard to watch but I guess that most of my favorite scenes in bsg are this way.

to me this moment is all about love, jalousie and feeling betrayed. but considering that involves Adama, Kara and Saul, of course their capacity to deal with sentiments is quite... damaged.

most of all I love that Kara and Tigh are on the same side in this confrontation, I love how things changed from the miniserie to here between the colonel and starbuck.

Adama acts like an asshole of course, but I believe his intention were good, he was really trying to shake Kara. A terrible way to deal with ptsd usually, but because it's Kara we are talking about, it works.

I like to think that that some the days after Kara and Adama have a moment of understanding.

Also I consider the scene between Kara and Adama in the extended version of daybreak (our blood, our lives, our honor...) the perfect counterpart of this moment.

Date: 2010-11-21 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imelda72.livejournal.com
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

That's all.

:-(

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