Confrontation

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Comments

[greycoupon.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, the scene that made me damn Adama to hell.

Kara was PTSDing like mad. So was Tigh. But he gets forgiven and Kara gets kicked out of her chair and called a cancer. With NO follow up. Was Maelstrom really the next personal interaction they had?

The "insurrection" or whatever it was didn't really make sense or work. At least Ron admitted that. What was the point? They were traumatized by New Caprica and would...get other pilots to be upset over past events? That's not a rebellion.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Was Maelstrom really the next personal interaction they had?

Someone mentioned below the brief moment when they pass each other in The Passage and I remembered reading recently in the podcast transcript that there was supposed to be a scene between Kara and Adama, and it seems it's all smoothed over from what RDM says:

There were other scenes, also in this episode. In the earlier, the much earlier, scene in the ready room, when Lee and Kara are briefing the pilots and they're telling them about taking the stims, Kat objects to taking the stims, and rather violently, and after that scene we learn that Kat had gone to Adama with her concern about it. And then Kara was talking to Adama about Kat saying, "She's out of control. She's a problem. We gotta do somethin' about her." And Adama then would bring up the- brought up the point about the stims and- he thinks that she's right about that. And Kara was taken aback. (Coughs.) Sorry. Kara was taken aback, and didn't know what to make of it. (Sniffle.)

Ultimately, that went away because I thought- I think one of the problems was it made Kat look petty that she went around Kara and Lee to talk to Adama and I wasn't sure why- that Kat had done anything- had done enough in the scene in the ready room to justify Kara then going and whining to Adama. So it felt like too many characters going to daddy and whining about the other and so it all went away and I felt like it was enough- that we would just accept Adama's connection to her. She talks about it and then the end of the show of course is very powerful about how he feels about her, and so on.

Sounds like things would've been considered all mended if Kara was going to him and complaining about Kat, but I agree it would have been nice to SEE that. I feel like that's the kind of scene we would have gotten in S1 for sure and maybe even S2, but that they'd forgotten about by S3. :(

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

Yeah, dealing with my feelings about this scene and the lack of followup inspired the fic I recently posted.

AND, to set the record straight, he SHOVED her out of the chair. Go back and carefully watch it again. Most people think he kicked her from the chair--and then Tigh does ask if Adama is going to kick him out of his chair, too. But, I believe the main reason people remember it this way is because it SEEMS like Adama was really verbally and metaphorically kicking Kara when she was already down.

It hurt so seeing their relationship at this point with no attempt made by the Admiral to understand what Kara was going through.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

It was a tough one to watch. That's a good point about the metaphorical kicking her when she's down. :(

[thegreenkitty.livejournal.com]

I realize I'm going to be in the minority here but I think maybe Kara needed this scene. She was stuck in a cycle of PTSD/depression and self-destructive behavior.

Yes, she had every reason and every right to be in that emotional state, but maybe tough love was the only thing that would get through to her at that point. Helo and Sam had tried being understanding. Lee had tried the threat of tough love with his airlock comment. Maybe she needed to get shoved out of her chair.

I don't know...but I say the above as someone who's been in a PTSD/depressed state and benefitted more from tough love than the caring/supportive crap...I think because it incorporates the anger that's already there but turns it a bit into a "frak you then, I'll prove you wrong" rather than allowing the anger to fester. It's easier to blow off a concerned friend than it is to ignore someone that gets in your face.

I'm also not advocating for Adama as a whole. The "daughter no more" comments and the lack of support/follow-up after the chair scene was horrible and possibly unforgiveable. I just don't think THIS scene was the problem. I tend to feel that his lack of personal interaction with Kara *after* this scene...after she motivated herself to chop off her hair and go to the next pilots' briefing...was where he completely failed.

Also, I think Adama realized that Kara and Tigh would each require a different approach b/c his relationship was different with each. You wouldn't confront your daughter and your bff in the same way. You'd have to maintain the unique dynamic of each relationship.

FWIW, I realize I'm all frakked up, but I actually like the Kara scenes in Torn.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

I'm also not advocating for Adama as a whole. The "daughter no more" comments and the lack of support/follow-up after the chair scene was horrible and possibly unforgiveable. I just don't think THIS scene was the problem. I tend to feel that his lack of personal interaction with Kara *after* this scene...after she motivated herself to chop off her hair and go to the next pilots' briefing...was where he completely failed.

I like (want) to think that there was a moment between those two (in my mind is after "Hero") in which they restored their relationship. Something with few words, as their style, but with deep understanding and a papadama hug.
just it wasn't shown on screen!!!
the way Adama looks at Kara in UB when she is on the ring with Hot Dog to me it's the prove that he still was and felt as the proud father.


FWIW, I realize I'm all frakked up, but I actually like the Kara scenes in Torn.
same here :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, bb. It's a difficult scene to watch and I do think Bill could have done without the more hurtful comments, but I didn't have a problem with the chair tossing or his attitude in general. She was stuck and drowning and I think it worked overall, although I am NOT a fan of of it needing to happen.

That said, I would have also preferred for the show to have dealt with Kara's trauma reaction in some other way than "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." But that is for a whole other discussion.

I also understand and appreciate the Torn scene. Don't like that it happened, but I get it and it makes sense to me.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, that they were surely trying to trigger Kara with the tough love (and for the writers POV that certainly did make her shape up for fear of being shipped out). The "daughter no more" was really tough to hear. And I wonder if that plus the specific wording of her being "a cancer" which is exactly what Leoben said her mother called her/what Kara herself thought she was, was the key to making her change/decide she would not be that.

Honestly, I'm not sure that really would have worked with Kara because I think those specific words might make her give up and just reinforce her beliefs that she's what her mother always said. But I dunno, maybe while she could accept that personally she was a mess/frakked up...her professional life was different?

I do like the Kacey scene they ended on, but it would've been nice to see her professional side restored too.

[kitsal.livejournal.com]

This scene was so painful to watch. Yeah, I understand the tough love thing, especially with Starbuck's personality. But I think that the "daughter no more" was completely unacceptable and cruel. That must have hurt Kara so bad.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I agree. It's so hard to hear Adama be that cruel to her.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I would add my vote to those who don't think this scene works very well. The episode didn't do anything to convince me that Kara and Tigh's trash-talking was having such serious consequences that they were metaphorically killing their Admiral, or whatever it was Bill was trying to say with his "shoot me" speech. As the episode plays, I get the impression that they are spending their off-duty time pissing off the active pilots by talking about how much worse they had it on New Caprica, which, okay, is unprofessional, but does not rate the "you are a cancer and I disown you" reaction on Bill's part, it just seems wildly over-reactive to me.

Kara's behavior earlier in the episode was far more disturbing -- she knowingly caused an accident which disabled her plane and could have resulted in serious injury to herself and the other pilot (I say she knowingly caused the accident because her calm, ironic announcement, "Incoming," made it clear that she saw the collision coming and deliberately followed Lee's order to "stay in formation" rather than moving aside and preventing the accident. I see this as a burst of passive aggression. I don't think she was trying to kill herself -- I don't think Kara would risk taking out another pilot with her in a collision like that if she thought the ships would hit hard enough to actually explode. I think it was an unhealthy but not suicidal impulse, and also a sticking-it-to-Lee moment, possibly even a tacit cry for his help/attention).

I wish they had let Bill react to *that* incident by reading her the riot act about not frakking around with her life or anyone else's. But we see none of his reaction to that, and his confrontation seems to be based instead on Helo's vague comment that she and Tigh are lowering morale. I don't see the same concern for her welfare in his approach to her as in his approach to Tigh, and I don't think it's so much because he accurately reads their different personalities as because he knows that Tigh lost Ellen and as far as he can see Kara hasn't lost anyone. He doesn't understand her trauma, and he doesn't try to.

I don't like how physical he is with Kara in this scene, or in his later Season Four scene where he throws her to the ground and throttles her in the brig. I think he crosses lines with Kara that should not be crossed; lines that he doesn't cross with Lee, for example. I think she does respond to it by "shaping up," and while I'm glad she took his negative behavior and used it for the good, I think it was still negative behavior and that if she needed "tough love" Adama should have found a way to administer it that was less abusive. I think Lee's approach was more appropriate -- he grounded her. Adama could have put her in the brig, he could have mandated she see a psychiatrist, he could have thrown down a verbal gauntlet about how she was taking the coward's way out by making herself unfit for duty, but he should have done all that without the personal nastiness of this scene, IMO.

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Interesting take on the Viper accident. I've always seen it as Starbuck going after Kat against orders and, possibly due to her being out of the cockpit for over a year, actually not being on top of her flying game and misjudging things.

I understand the tough love approach, and for Kara (who doesn't do subtle) I think it was partially the way to go. But Adama's actual execution of it was awful and an over-reaction to the circumstances like you said. He should have confronted her in private, demanded she frakking explain herself or else. Force her to talk and wave the stick as incentive.

And his physical 'abuse'... I'm 'torn' ;^) Kara is a very physical person. It's how she knows to deal with things. The fact that Adama reacts physically to her is HIGHLY inappropriate, but also shows how emotionally involved he is with her. We know Kara's childhood abuse issues and it gives us a perspective that I don't think Adama's character has.

Then there is Maelstrom. Whether the writers meant it or not, I blame a lot of Kara's issues/actions/reactions in that episode on unresolved PTSD and family/'daddy' issues. The only meaningful interaction prior to Maelstrom that I can remember between Adama and Kara was at Kat's bedside when he puts his hand on Kara's shoulder to comfort her. He doesn't even try to have a private talk with her after Lee's revelations in Maelstrom, just the public little interchange between them (made of WIN, for sure, but too brief & again-public)

Gee, think I've given this any thought?! :)

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

And his physical 'abuse'... I'm 'torn' ;^) Kara is a very physical person. It's how she knows to deal with things. The fact that Adama reacts physically to her is HIGHLY inappropriate, but also shows how emotionally involved he is with her.

yes. this.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

FYI--I posted a comment up top this thread bout a scene between Kara and Bill that was apparently in the early shooting script of The Passage, where Kara went to "daddy" to complain about Kat, which seems to hint that all was mended when Kara shaped up. But I wish we'd seen something more between them. Sigh.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

I have to confess that I adore this scene.
It's hard to watch but I guess that most of my favorite scenes in bsg are this way.

to me this moment is all about love, jalousie and feeling betrayed. but considering that involves Adama, Kara and Saul, of course their capacity to deal with sentiments is quite... damaged.

most of all I love that Kara and Tigh are on the same side in this confrontation, I love how things changed from the miniserie to here between the colonel and starbuck.

Adama acts like an asshole of course, but I believe his intention were good, he was really trying to shake Kara. A terrible way to deal with ptsd usually, but because it's Kara we are talking about, it works.

I like to think that that some the days after Kara and Adama have a moment of understanding.

Also I consider the scene between Kara and Adama in the extended version of daybreak (our blood, our lives, our honor...) the perfect counterpart of this moment.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

of course their capacity to deal with sentiments is quite...damaged.

Hee, well put!

That's a great observation too about how much things had changed from the mini. Oh New Caprica, nothing was the same after you, nothing.

[imelda72.livejournal.com]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

That's all.

:-(