Open Forum

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I've been in not-quite-thinky mode lately and have fallen back on just posting pics here most of the time. So I'm gonna be lazy (some more!) and ask y'all to post questions and topics of discussion we should cover here! (Or, if you're good with just the pictures, that's fine too.)

Comments

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about a possible discussion topic: Kara's statues. Personally, I love that she prays to Artemis and Aphrodite but I'm curious about what other people think. I remember the first time we saw those idols, I thought that Artemis was an obvious choice but Aphrodite less so--Athena would have been an easier option given that Kara's a soldier and all that. Which is not to say that I think it should have been Athena--just the opposite! I think it's really interesting that Kara who has such a difficult relationship with love prays to Aphrodite.

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

Hadn't really given this much thought. Makes you wonder if RDM just picked two mostly at random or put some thought into it.
Aphrodite might represent her desire to be loved, something she's only willing to really acknowledge in the privacy of her prayers.

From Wikipedia: (Because of her beauty other gods feared that jealousy would interrupt the peace among them and lead to war, and so Zeus married her to Hephaestus, who was not viewed as a threat. Aphrodite had many lovers, both gods like Ares, and men like Anchises. Aphrodite also became instrumental in the Eros and Psyche legend, and later was both Adonis' lover and his surrogate mother. Many lesser beings were said to be children of Aphrodite)
--I suppose there are comparisons to Kara, but not ones that would necessarily make her choose Aphrodite.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

For the sake of my own fangirlness, I prefer to believe that RDM didn't just randomly assign the goddesses.

Even though Aphrodite doesn't initially appear to be an obvious choice--not like Artemis--I do find her quite fitting in a way that is a bit hard to define? I think Kara would respect Aphrodite; her independence and power and sexuality are all things, I imagine, that would appeal to Kara.

Kara definitely believes in action and physicality, so in that sense perhaps Aphrodite is a more fitting choice than the more cerebral Athena.

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

I was curious about Stockholm Syndrome (mostly because I'm obsessed with the New Caprica arc) and did some research:

Wiki again: A paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages have positive feelings towards their captors that appear irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, essentially mistaking a lack of abuse from their captors as an act of kindness.

The following are viewed as the conditions necessary for Stockholm syndrome to occur:

* Hostages who develop Stockholm syndrome often view the perpetrator as giving life by simply not taking it. In this sense, the captor becomes the person in control of the captive’s basic needs for survival and the victim’s life itself.
* The hostage endures isolation from other people and has only the captor’s perspective available. Perpetrators routinely keep information about the outside world’s response to their actions from captives to keep them totally dependent.
* The hostage taker threatens to kill the victim and gives the perception of having the capability to do so. The captive judges it safer to align with the perpetrator, endure the hardship of captivity, and comply with the captor than to resist and face death.
* The captive sees the perpetrator as showing some degree of kindness. Kindness serves as the cornerstone of Stockholm syndrome; the condition will not develop unless the captor exhibits it in some form toward the hostage. However, captives often misinterpret a lack of abuse as kindness and may develop feelings of appreciation for this perceived benevolence. If the perpetrators show some kindness, victims will submerge the anger they feel in response to the terror and concentrate on the captors’ “good side” to protect themselves.

This certainly sounds like what Leoben was going for with Kara--whether intentionally or not.

Did he succeed at all?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Great questions! I guess a couple of things come to mind. It's a bit off the top of my head, so I hope it makes sense.

1. I'm not sure that Kara meets the most basic of criteria for Stockholm Syndrome (hostages have positive feelings towards their captors) because I don't remember canon examples of her having positive feelings towards Leoben after captivity. One of the essential features is that she would be concerned for his welfare. She killed him eleven (?) times, so I don't think she had any of those basic conflicted feelings about him. Without that as a foundation, the other criteria might not matter.

2. It's difficult to apply any psychological conditions to a fantastical environment with supernatural events, e.g. Leoben cannot be killed, Kara died and came back.

3. Any sympathetic feelings she does have towards Leoben occur after her death when she appears as "the angel" and is guided by him and others towards fulfilling her destiny. I don't consider her feelings here to be able to support the "human" definition of Stockholm Syndrome because she was not really human.

4. Stockholm Syndrome doesn't appear to be something that a captor "does" to a victim, although the more manipulative of captors would certainly be capable. The picture we get of Leoben is a crazy man obsessed with Kara and trying to help her fulfill her destiny, while getting some "family time" on the side. Did he threaten her life? Did he try to kill her? I don't remember that he did. What he did was create severe trauma - not necessarily induce Stockholm Syndrome.

I think there are elements of Stockholm Syndrome in the mix - that she had extremely complex feelings about Leoben and Kacey, but I don't think they rise to the level of Stockholm Syndrome overall. She didn't try to save him, didn't implore the Fleet to help him, didn't behave in any way to direct herself or others about his welfare. It is my understanding that people experiencing Stockholm Syndrome will not actively testify against their captors, often join their captors zealous efforts, and may abandon true family in favor of their captors. I think if Kara had stayed for many more months with Leoben, the brainwashing might have been complete and then, yes, she might have actually chosen to stay. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for the great topic!

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

I certainly think all the necessary elements were in place for Stockholm Syndrome. Leoben controlled ALL of her basic needs, had her totally isolated, held her life & health in his hands and constantly showed restraint.

I personally doubt he ever outright threatened her, but what did Kara really know about Leoben at the beginning? She didn't KNOW that he wouldn't phyiscally or sexually harm her. She had to consider it since he mentioned about their roles being reversed each cycle. Even with his stoic persona, I always felt there was a definite edge of threat to him.

To live in that situation for months on end and be told that there was no chance for rescue HAD to affect Kara.

The only two instances that I remember seeing on the show that hinted that she might have a certain level of SS was when he forced her to say she loved him and kiss him. I'm pretty sure that we were suppose to have doubts about how Kara really felt--probably because her character was conflicted, too. Then the deleted scene where Kara confronts a Leoben when he's one of the infected Cylons being held in the brig. The portion where she's bringing up his use of Kacey again shows a hint of emotional conflict--to me--and not just anger. There was a sense of betrayal--she had come to trust him to a point that she believed his lie about 'their child'.

I would have loved if the show had explored SS & PTSD with Kara. It was one of the biggest dropped plot/character points IMO.

I agree that, per canon, she didn't truly qualify as SS, but was definitely headed that way.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I agree that the elements were in place, but not fully executed. PTSD related to the captivity? Definitely. Even Complex PTSD when you add in her childhood trauma, but I'm not sold on a fully formed Stockholm Syndrome. I do think her feelings were complex, as I said above, I just don't see her going the extra step of being concerned for Leoben's welfare. I haven't seen the deleted scene, so I can't really comment on it.

I think one could make a case for SS in a more developed fic that adds the in-between scenes of their life together for those four months. I'm just saying that I don't see it in canon. And thank the gods for that. It would have been very hard to see. :(

[mserrada.livejournal.com]

What? Kara being emotionally stuck on two live and one dead guy was enough for you? ;^)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

OMG! That is too frakking funny. Gah. Why they do that to her??

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I know this is kind of late, but I have been wondering what Kara felt when Lee gave her the Aurora idol she had given Adama. Did she feel hurt that her gift had been re-gifted or did she realize Adama had given it to Lee because it was meaningful to him?